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acie earl 55
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    This just in - US Prep School doesn't mean D1 Scholarships

    acie earl 55
    acie earl 55
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    Post by acie earl 55 Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:52 am

    Doesn't matter who the handler is, parents and players take warning - if you don't understand the Clearinghouse you're not going anywhere . . . fast . . . and not cheap.

    http://blogs.canoe.ca/courtside/general/sim-bhullar-to-new-mexico-state-bramptons-thomas-not-going-to-texas-this-year-bargnani-goes-off-can-vs-brazil-tonight/

    Bhullar's paying for New Mexico State tuition instead of playing for Xavier (where he'd still pay a year's tuition) or going prep one more year. While these "Unique" Clearinghouse issues have just come up, I'm sure someone at the 14 Prep Schools he and his brother have attended the past years could have helped take care of credits. Even Xavier and New Mex would now know the drill.

    Thomas is another one! At Pickering, they would have had the lowdown of what to do - they've sent plenty of athletes down south for many sports. Does Ro Prep not have a moment to ensure their best players are going to be eligible - especially when they give a fifth year of high school.

    Garbage.

    Wiggins - stay home young man!
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    Youngblood
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    Post by Youngblood Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:02 am

    Isn't the caveat here to handle your business? Prep's don't guarantee D-1 scholarships but can (for some) arithmetically increase your exposure. The 'catch 22' is that as more people leave for Prep's it decreases the talent pool so to get competition and be able to play against the 'best'. You go south.

    Both Prep's and AAU benefit from all of the hard work the Canadian system's put in for years. Unfortunately as we get better our players are scooped (some would say poached) and go down south, but, the people that give real scholarships and offer an opportunity for a chance at a professional look are in the US.

    Until our schools can offer the above our kids will be drawn and pulled south like prospectors looking for gold. The lesson here is do your homework stay on top of things. A scholarship to a university is what it's all about. Pay for your school.
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    Youngblood
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    Post by Youngblood Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:22 am

    Toronto is North America's high school basketball hot spot. The US coaches are coming en mass, what steps are we going to take to keep our players here? CIA Bounce, Nothern Kings, Grass Roots and other clubs have left a trail of crumbs leading to the GTA. We have very good coaches ready to work but, our kids have tasted the 'Big Time'. The interest & investment into the game isn't synonymous. They just put more time & money into it. Our kids want to play against the best competition and get their school paid for.

    Tough situation.
    Any suggestions??
    I can't tell a kid to stay and be the one to change the trend.
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    thewayIseeit
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    Post by thewayIseeit Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:23 am

    Thomas apparently failed to qualify academically and is not enrolled in classes. He will enrol in a junior college this year. Thomas played at the Christian Faith Center Academy in North Carolina this season. A source told the Sun that Thomas was an A student, making the rulling more puzzling.

    What else is new about Ro and Christian Faith Centre. The students do nothing. There is NO schooling going on over there. The same goes for several of these other prep schools.

    Young Blood...FYI the US wont be pumping $$ into athletics for much longer. They are on the verge of total economic disaster. Good luck to them and all the students who leave our great country.


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    Youngblood
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    Post by Youngblood Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:37 am

    The real problem is that even in the US's economic downturn they'll still spend 10X's what we do because, as much as it is about money it's more about how much they value the sport; and how much we as Canadians value an inner-city sport that isn't played on ice.

    As far as Christian Faith goes, there are plenty of students who do well down south, how many students are screwing up equally as bad here failing in Ontario schools, but on the basketball team 4 maybe 5 years and leaving with nothing. I think we forget about many of these kids. Those who don't go to Prep, CIS, or College.
    Those who go south are our elite athletes. Can we blame them for wanting have the best situation possible to be the best they can be? I know many who've stayed and haven't earned the CIS degree too. is it case by case, school by school, prep to prep?
    Be smart.
    Fire can keep you warm, cook and illuminate but if not attended to, it can burn you up.
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    thewayIseeit
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    Post by thewayIseeit Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:00 pm

    youngblood very true and I agree with much of what you said...However I have a question for you. Does going down to the US make you a better player?


    bruins
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    Post by bruins Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:54 pm

    i would say no unless you are at a top prep school that competes against the top talent, school like findlay and st benedicts etc play other top programs and that further prepares atletes for on court success, but in the grand picture if you can play the coaches will find you, you dont hear much about real players not get noticed especially in the technology era..most of these players have the fantasy that they are going to make the nba and that is not a realistic goal...if the least the get out of playing down south is a free education that thats incredible...this bhullar situation can attest to just how much that education cost just for one year
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    Youngblood
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    Post by Youngblood Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:44 pm

    Going south can make a good player with potential a great player, and a great player better. In some situations by offering the player the chance to play their proper position. For example this is difficult now for anyone 6'4" - 6'7" who in Canada would be a 4-5 learning post skills but would be too small for that position in most D1 schools. They wouldn't have the experience needed as a 2-3 to be seriously looked at. They (universities) won't always want to retrain you.

    I think it's our responsibility to find a way to keep our players rather than their responsibility to find a way to stay stay.

    If you took our top 15 players who may be sophomore-senior aged, in each category, how many are playing in Canada? What percentage of those 45 players are in Canada? The question is what have we done here, what policies have we set in place to keep our players or are we just hoping that they'll stay because we say they should?

    Only 2% of all college players go pro so we are talking about a college education. Across Canada, we will offer scholarship money to those people gifted or work hard academically but somehow think we are above doing it for those who are athletically gifted and work hard.

    We are asking Andrew Wiggins to stay here? Would we ask a young genius to turn down MIT, Oxford, or Harvard because we want to strengthen our Canadian programs? If we did we would be sure to offer him/her anything they needed to nurture their gift and help them to prosper.
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    DBAtraining
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    Post by DBAtraining Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:06 pm

    The points made by Youngblood are solid, and I hope that this one adds to their impact. Not ever D1 scholarship has intrinsic academic value - some D1 academics are amazing, others......a disaster, programmes that lead to degrees that are not valid anywhere outside of their own state. Therefore, its not just the free education, if that education does not lead to a bona fide career opportunity for the student / athlete. Whatever one may say about Canada, and the lack of true athletic scholarship opportunities here, our universities do provide a consistent aacdemic path to a degree that will be recognized in the working world.
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    Youngblood
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    Post by Youngblood Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:12 pm

    You are right our Canadian schools offer a fine program. Just not athletic scholarships to participate in them. So if you can't afford the cost of the fine schooling the opportunity doesn't matter. Here's the difference. If I'm a good athlete here but can't afford an education I probably won't go to university or might compromise my training by having to work a part time job trying to pay for it, ...
    ... If I'm an elite athlete with US scholarship offers I can pick whether or not I will attend an academically challenging school or one that may offer a mail in diploma. Choice and opportunity are the difference. One increases the opportunity the other offers little. Let's be honest, people all over pick schools and courses that may not be challenging everyday just to get that piece of paper. Why would or should athletes be different?

    I'm not saying that we don't have good schools I'm saying we don't value athletics the way we should at them. As long as we don't we will continue to experience an athletic drain on our system and a sub-standard performance internationally. We are stifling our own progress, don't blame athletes and parents of athletes for looking south to offer educational choice and increased athletic development.
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    rerun
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    Post by rerun Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:26 pm

    Very interesting topic! This is such a complicated issue. The main issues with Canadian schools are the admission marks and the high cost of attending school. One of the worst kept secrets are that kids are leaving here so they can get around the Clearinghouse because it would be easier for them to qualify in the United States than within the Ontario Curriculum.

    Many of the Prep schools are not providing any type of quality education whatsoever. That's a shame! The first wave of kids have finished their prep school education and in my opinion it is failing many of them. We celebrate the success of Corey Joseph and Tristan Thompson. They"re held up as the gold standard, but, we forget about many others he left and ended up with nothing or maybe a juco scholarship. I don't want to name names but many of them would have been better off staying here and attending their local high school.

    This prep school and American university scholarship is not for every kid out there. It is very difficult to leave your family, friends and whole support system behind for the pursuit of greener pastures in basketball. Many of these kids are having very poor experiences in the classroom, off the court in their personal lives and also on the court as well. I think the whole story needs to told! We celebrate the successes and that is great! However, we need to be informed about the failures as well so others can make informed decisions in the future.
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    Youngblood
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    Post by Youngblood Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:27 am

    I agree with the above.
    I'm also feeling that as Canadians we need make our own systems attractive, supportive, and strong enough to meet the needs of our increasingly talented youth or we would've failed them.

    We can talk about how so many of our kids aren't getting the academic challenge and support they need but, if we don't push to change our system because we 'think' we're better or have some sort of ethical high ground. The southern choose will be made, and rightly so.
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    DBAtraining
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    Post by DBAtraining Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:36 pm

    Of course there is another obvious approach - encourage our guys to do better in high school!!! The guys who play big time hoops at Stanford, Duke, NC, Harvard, Princeton, ND, etc etc....they qualify academically, and they can play!!!...being devil's advocate, why does playing ball mean you are looking to make excuses for a lower standard when you are looking to go to school? These examples suggest to me that the "Canadian schools have unrealistic academic standards" argument does not fly very well

    A pal of mine once said "there are 168 hours in a week" - its how you choose to use them, and our guys (maybe) ought to think about how they use the ones that aren't devoted to bball....
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    Youngblood
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    Post by Youngblood Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:17 pm

    I don't quite understand what you mean??

    No one is saying that athletes need an excuse. You have to pass to play.

    What is being said is that we don't seriously value basketball in Canada. All of the schools you mentioned are American and most offer either scholarships or financial aid. What I am saying is that even if you have above average grades and you're a ball player why stay here? How are they attending to your athletic talents? If Canada chooses not to value basketball and many other sports and the Americans will pay for your school why would you stay?

    What if I was a basketball player and I carried an 75-80% average, adequate, maybe even above average in most circumstance but well below academic scholarship range, should I pay for my schooling at UofT, York or Queens or accept that scholarship to one of the American schools you mentioned?

    It's not always about encouraging our kids to do better.
    It's more about encouraging US to do a better job of nurturing our young athletes and creating an atmosphere where they'd want to stay and be educated.
    Don't get it twisted I am all about education.
    Can I ask one question, why don't we offer athletic scholarships? Because without a good answer to that question you're basically telling many of our elite athletes to go south if they aren't affluent enough to pay for school.
    acie earl 55
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    Post by acie earl 55 Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:27 pm

    The question about what exactly is covered for student scholarships in Canada or US is really hard to answer. There's too many issues that impact the percentages that you can't say it's cut and dry.

    I'm not saying students shouldn't go down to the states - I think the schools and coaches have a responsibility not to lead families down a false road. Sure, parents and kids don't always listen - but there's no reason why so many kids can't get cleared to play. This isn't just an issue for these two players - think about Marvel Waithe, Theo Davis DJ Wright or other folks who've gone down to only not to be in a good spot.

    While Canadian Basketball now celebrates (or fears) the successes of the players going down to the states to play prep - how many are not getting educated or post-secondary opportunities that end up saving them money and time. Getting a "degree" with no job prospects (playing or otherwise) that took six years and three JUCO's to complete isn't much of a savings in the big picture.
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    Youngblood
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    Post by Youngblood Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:26 am

    Question,
    Would many of these students, who may not have been that academic, done any better here in Canada? The road to basketball oblivion is paved by those students who aren't academic both here and away. Many don't complete high school at all and, unfortunately, aren't a part of this conversation.

    I believe that many of the students we either highlight or think of who've had rough situations in the states probably would've had troubles here.
    My big question is, why, if we want these athletes to get that education, do we not offer scholarships here? If we are so academically focused, why don't we offer a free education for athletes?
    I know some kids have unfortunate situations happen to them when they go down, but nobody ever talks about what we're doing to combat that.
    What do we do to help our kids playing ball in highschool outside of tell them to study, and do work hard? We talk a lot about the kid who made the wrong decision to go. What about the kid who stays and fails out? They're not mentioned.
    The issue isn't who passes and who fails and who gets a good Canadian education the question is why don't we do something about kids going down there outside of shouting 'You may not get a good education', or , 'They won't take care of you down there,?
    What are we doing so that they'll want to stay here to be educated?
    Again, nobody is questioning that some kids don't do well, the question is:
    What do we do to get them to stay?
    Telling them the pitfalls of going down south without offering something they want or need instead will never be enough.


    Last edited by Youngblood on Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:29 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Grammar)
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    thewayIseeit
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    Post by thewayIseeit Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:54 am

    Youngblood you make some good points and I agree with much of what you have to say. But I am going to counter a few of your points.

    The first being that kids in Canada 6'4 to 6'7 will be post players. This is no longer the case. In fact Canada has progressed more in the development of young player in this country than the US. The only luxury the US has over Canada is population. They DO NOT do a good job of developing talent over there. That is the Biggest MYTH. They simply select from a vast number of people. Players in the USA are used to win at any cost NOT for any sort of development .In other words if your good at what you do we will use you.

    The second thing I disagree about is your comment of "why wouldn't a Genius go to MIT, Harvard etc....Our Canadain Universities far surpass any of those in the US. Those schools are all about the name. They are very expensive institutions that advertise to the elite upper class of American society. As Canadians we have to STOP thinking that everything in the US is superior to us. If I was a Genius I would stay here in Canada. If I was an elite athlete I would stay here as well.



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    rerun
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    Post by rerun Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:04 am

    Youngblood,

    I totally understand what you are saying. I can only speak about my personal situation coming out of high school. I was that kid with the 78% percent OAC average...not quite high enough to qualify for the $3500 off my tuition. I had several American schools offering me 80% scholarships in track and field and soccer, and York, Western and Toronto offering me nothing except the promise of a better, but, much more expensive education. They told me a million horror stories to about former Canadian athletes going to the States and having terrible experiences. I chose the scholarship offers over staying here and paying for everything. My family and I did the math and financially it made sense. I was saving thousands of dollars in the long run! As I said before, this is such a complicated issue.

    There is no doubt that Canadian schools provide a better educational experience. The CIS over the years has really tried to raise the profile of University sports in Canada....more exposure, TV Coverage...better facilities, but, the lack of scholarship money for athletes who have an average of less than 80% is a huge problem. Let's be honest.....that excludes a vast majority of the top players....especially the black players.

    Secondly, it is very expensive to attend school here without some type of
    financial aid. Many of the players we are talking about simply don't have
    the money. You can pay 16k-20k a year in Canada or considerably less if you are on a basketball scholarship in the States. If you are making an informed decision and not foolishly compromising your education, then it is a no brainer. My parents are hard working, middle class people who did plan for my post secondary education and put away some money. The parents of the kids we are talking about probably didn't. It easier for most to think short term....get a basketball scholarship to the United States and if that fails go to Community college. That plan is much more affordable and attainable, than the long term planning and saving it takes to attend a Canadian University. A lot of this comes down to parents and proper parenting and that is a whole different issue. The US university option is not for everyone. I just want people to make informed decisions about their post secondary education, but, that takes some patience and long term planning. I don't see a lot of that taking place with many kids and their parents.

    Lastly, the reason why people want to attend IVY League schools is not primarily the education. It is the alumni connections! The money you are paying to attend Harvard, Yale, Princeton or Cornell etc gives you access to some of the most powerful, well paid, well connected people on the planet.
    The high cost of attendance to these schools is the price you pay for that exclusive access. Most Queens, Western or U of T. grads might not make 100k upon graduation, but, a Harvard, Princeton or Yale grad knows that he/she will easily surpass that figure upon graduation when he/she starts in the workforce. If I'm a genuis and money driven as well, I'm definitely attending Harvard or some other IVY League school because I want that exclusive access to that inner circle that I can't get in Canada.
    acie earl 55
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    Post by acie earl 55 Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:20 am

    I don't see this problem as just an issue of false promises. It's actually much much larger.

    It starts in Grade 8 - when players who have the talent to possibly play at any University aren't counselled to be taking Academic level courses. Right off the bat, they're out of luck because they're in a deep hole - particularly if they are not academically strong - (this crosses all cultures). If students are taking Applied courses and continuing to focus on basketball - they may get to an interesting crossroads -

    I'm not going down south to get exposed - I'm going down south to reclassify so I can be eligible at some point.

    This is a great sense of false security. Players get an extra year to play and they're taking on competition at least one year younger than them. Not only do they shine, but they look like super-man-childs with the extra year of development. Think about how people are going crazy about the sophmore to come - Andrew Wiggins! They said the same thing about the next LeBron - Olu Ashaolu. I wonder if he'll even get draft consideration after he completes his fifth year of University this year. . .

    So look at Kevin Thomas - an academically suitable student (Because no one has ever questioned Pickering's academic standards - do they still have Grade Nine "Latin") who failed to qualify for his scholarship. This is crazy!!! This is a problem. When two programs and a highly developed University can't get the student's profile correct over 5 years of high school - some blame has to be accepted.

    Lastly, my call for Wiggins to stay home isn't about staying in Canada . . . it's about surrounding yourself around people who will make sure you take care of all of your business. Huntington clearly didn't do that for Sim. Christian Faith had their part in the failure of Thomas - and remember, Wiggins left there too after one semester. With that, even missing a semester of "Ontario" education, Wiggins has his credits - because Vaughan SS (not Canadian basketball system) takes care of their kids.

    As for Rerun's point on education - you're way off base. Check out the salaries for US grads.

    http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/top-us-colleges-graduate-salary-statistics.asp

    I'm sure the results for Canadian schools would not be as good, but the gap isn't so great and the inner circle access isn't really available for everyone. It's kinda like promising a 16 year old you're going to UNC to be part of their inner circle and to only end up at New Mexico State because you could save $17 on your international tuition.

    http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/34534/7-foot-4-sim-bhullar-to-enroll-at-nmsu

    BTW, NMS grads make on average $44.5 K upon graduation. Definitely worth the investment over a Canadian school . . . Of course, New Mexico St. is known for producing great talent and $25 K isn't the total tuition cost of a four year program at York.

    But the year of playing D1 is definitely worth the money. Wait. He's sitting out the year. Nevermind.
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    Post by Youngblood Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:52 pm

    Who's going to guarantee the money for Wiggins to stay here? Again i don't think people are listening or reading. Read what Rerun said. It is my experience. I did the same thing I'm educated have 2 degrees and a good job with an American education.
    The idea that our education system is far superior to that of a Harvard or Princeton, or other Ivy League schools is just 'off'. We have some that rival but C'Mon. I think a lot of this just comes down to a knee jerk reaction to our Canadian Inferiority complex. We won't do anything about the fact that our athletes go south but COMPLAIN about them going and talking about Why they shouldn't go.
    We won't offer the scholarship but we will COMPLAIN when they (the Americans) do and our kids take them.
    They do have more kids there which means that they will offer more competition. We need to get our heads out of the sand. I still haven't read one reason why, WE DON'T OFFER ATHLETIC SCHOLARSHIPS?????
    I've read why our education system supposedly is better, I've heard why kids shouldn't go but I have yet to read the answer to that question.
    If I read a reasonable answer to that I'll be the first to agree. Unfortunately I've only heard/read people dance around concrete solutions.

    For example, we have the TAS program here for targeted athletes, this is an excellent program but I'm certain that if you asked those involved they would even say it is superficial at best. It is a once a week program for a handful of athletes and, although it is staffed by excellent people, it can't go far enough.
    Admittedly if that were a much broader program for a larger number of students after the age of 14, it is a step towards a solution. Those are the type of things that we as Canadians need to sponsor for our kids. The problem is that it just isn't enough. If our kids had this connected to a free education as a supplement we would keep our kids, develop them at home and stop the talent drain.
    That's an attempt at a solution, not just complaining, or empty reasons why they shouldn't go.
    And if I hear one more person say they shouldn't go because our education system is better it just goes to show that they don't understand the problem at the level that it needs to be addressed, because it isn't about how good the education system is rather it's MORE about ACCESS to that good education. With out access that good education is nothing but a wish.
    Thanks rerun.
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    Mu2
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    Post by Mu2 Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:23 pm

    are you sure canadian univeristies don't give out scholarships..... I'm pretty sure I heard of several players getting full rides to Canadian universities (not sure what their academics were, but I don't think they were anything special). Can anyone confirm? I'm almost 100% they do.

    This prep school talk is going to go on for a while. There are some success stories but a lot of failure stories as well. I've talk to a lot of players and they regret going down or thought they were going to play against better talent, but that is not the case.

    I think those people have to spread there word to get another view of going down south, because the press only focus on the success stories.

    and by the way you don't think Cory, Tristan, wiggins, etc wouldn't get/'got interest if they stayed in Canada? LOL
    acie earl 55
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    Post by acie earl 55 Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:45 pm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletic_scholarship#Canada

    Youngblood - you're missing the point.

    Speaking for myself, who started this thread . . .

    It's great that players can go down south to face better competition. I support that. I can't support players going down to school and they aren't learning. Worse off, the go down not knowing the gaps in the system based on their Ontario Credits AND coaches and schools taking advantage of their ambition and desire.

    I also can't stand the basketball factories here in Canada that don't create an environment where a student can make good choices about their playing future and education. Schools here exploit kids as much as the Prep Schools down south - there's no proof otherwise.

    Players, Coaches and Parents reading about this - do your research and hit the books! Pangos is proof of that too! Do your work (on and off the court) and you can go D1 in four years even if you don't attend a basketball powerhouse.
    avatar
    Mu2
    Sophomore


    Number of posts : 390
    Registration date : 2009-02-20

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    Post by Mu2 Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:15 pm

    From the website above"

    'tuition and compulsory fees is the maximum amount you can receive for athletic-related awards in an academic year, including athletic-related bursaries."

    "the value and quantity of athletic-related awards and bursaries available varies from institution to institution"

    "specific awards and bursaries may have additional conditions, such as academic success and citizenship, beyond what is stated here."

    "alternatively, you are eligible to receive an award at the end of your first year at a university (spring or summer) if you satisfy CIS academic requirements with at least a 65% average or equivalent."

    Therefore you can get althletic scholarships/bursaries!

    and just to highlight again from above: Players, Coaches and Parents reading about this - do your research and hit the books! Pangos is proof of that too! Do your work (on and off the court) and you can go D1 in four years even if you don't attend a basketball powerhouse.


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    d1
    Freshman


    Number of posts : 86
    Registration date : 2008-11-24

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    Post by d1 Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:19 pm

    Pangos is proof of that too! Do your work (on and off the court) and you can go D1 in four years even if you don't attend a basketball powerhouse.


    there is more!
    avatar
    rerun
    Senior


    Number of posts : 958
    Registration date : 2008-07-25

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    Post by rerun Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:57 pm

    Acie Earl,

    Respect! I can't argue against cold facts. You definitely set the record straight on the starting salary of Ivy League Grads. Talk about false promises! I was recruited by Cornell University and Dartmouth College and that was what they told me to justify their high tuition cost. Don't worry about the cost....a Dartmouth Grad or Cornell Grad on average makes 85K upon graduation....this is in 1992! You mean those American recruiters lied to me! LOL....I also have two child hood friends that are Harvard Grads and making over 100K but they are investment bankers.....point taken not every Harvard Grad is heading to Wall Street and 100K payouts.

    Secondly MU2,

    Canadian schools offer scholarships. Simon Fraser has been doing so for many years. Schools out in eastern Canada offer money as well, furthermore, it must be decent because some of these schools have quite a few American players on their football and basketball rosters. However, D1 and D2 schools offer full basketball scholarships....not partial scholarships, or tuition and fee scholarships or scholarships that kick in during your second year if you have a 65% average. If you are an above average student with a 70-79% average there is no financial relief for you in Ontario. You need an 80% average to get 3,500 off your tuition. That is a nice piece of change but if you are still paying an additional 12k-15k to stay on campus then it is still alot of money in comparison to a full D1 or D2 scholarship to an American University.


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