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The Greater Toronto Area High School Basketball Forums


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Coach Dougall
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    basketballrumors
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    Post by basketballrumors Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:14 pm

    As the new school year starts sports are a question

    All Catholic schools HAVE agreed to a contract where public schools HAVE NOT

    Looks like catholic schools will have sports teams and public schools will not (as they may work to rule)

    If I was in a public school I would transfer to a Catholic school so that I could play and develop as a player!

    Let the transfers begin!

    BASKETBALLRUMORS


    Last edited by basketballrumors on Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Xavier Rimrocker
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    Post by Xavier Rimrocker Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:58 pm

    A few things:

    The provincial Catholic union and the province have reached a memorandum of understanding but the actual employers are the individual boards and only three have agreed to it so there are no agreements for most boards so far.

    A player that transfers this year will have to sit out the season unless they didn't play (league, playoff, exhibition) as per OFSAA rules. There is no exception for job actions. (Note 4 in OFSAA transfer rules)

    All of this might not matter if the legislation goes through as it would force agreements on both unions and boards and, at that point, work to rule would be in murky legal grounds as a CBA, whether its negotiated or legislated, prevents work to rule or any other form of organised job action (It would not prevent individual teachers from making personal choices not to volunteer to coach.)
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    estebanwilliamos
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    Post by estebanwilliamos Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:49 am

    Xavier Rimrocker,

    You seem to be the most knowledgeable and outspoken Peel coach that posts on this site so I was hoping you could answer a few questions for me.

    If a "work to rule" situation takes place, based on the coaches you know, how many coaches do you think will go against the grain and continue to coach their respective school basketball teams?

    Also, if a "work to rule" situation occurs, will there still be ROPSSAA league play or even OFSAA? Or will the coaches that decide to continue with their programs be forced to play in only exhibition and tournament games?

    Thanks in advance for taking the time to answer my questions.



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    basketballrumors
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    Post by basketballrumors Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:53 pm

    If students did transfer to a catholic school, they could at least practice everyday (if they make the team) and play none ofsaa sanction tournaments (which is most). They would miss league play, but would be eligible to play next season.
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    nomullies
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    Post by nomullies Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:08 pm

    This is a touchy issue. I coached both high school girls and boys last year while teaching in a GTA public school. Part of the reason I went into teaching was to coach, some 28 years ago. I've got many years in bball but pale in comparison to some colleagues who live the sport 365 days a year. Still, I think my contribution has been significant, at least in terms of time and positively affecting young athletes. Having sports and extra-curriculars make high school a wonderful experience for many students.

    I coach because I want to. But it's political times like this that make me think. I don't want to sacrifice my current group of athletes to make a point. But if this government imposes this legislation and bypasses collective bargaining altogether, what do I do? It will cost me a lot of money as I'm close to retirement. I don't mean to do a soapbox. Just make it clear this affects our livelihood.

    At the moment I am still going to coach.
    Xavier Rimrocker
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    Post by Xavier Rimrocker Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:51 am

    An update.

    If you look at the Toronto Star today, you will see that one of the provincial union heads has made it clear that any work to rule would involve administrative duties, not extra curriculars so student-athletes would not be affected. This is in synch with what I've been hearing from various sources.

    Also the legislation looks like it's on track to be passed so that would also ensure a season.

    It's fine for people to be concerned and ask questions but there also seem to be opportunists who want to stoke the fires in order to scare students away from high school ball and into pay for playing situations. While the choice of program is up to the individual, no one should do it out of fear of a strike or work to rule. All signs right now point to a full season of school sports in Ontario.


    Last edited by Xavier Rimrocker on Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:26 am; edited 1 time in total
    Xavier Rimrocker
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    Post by Xavier Rimrocker Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:52 am

    basketballrumors wrote:If students did transfer to a catholic school, they could at least practice everyday (if they make the team) and play none ofsaa sanction tournaments (which is most). They would miss league play, but would be eligible to play next season.

    Not necessarily. Many leagues now forbid all game play for ineligible players.
    Xavier Rimrocker
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    Post by Xavier Rimrocker Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:57 am

    estebanwilliamos wrote:If a "work to rule" situation takes place, based on the coaches you know, how many coaches do you think will go against the grain and continue to coach their respective school basketball teams?

    Also, if a "work to rule" situation occurs, will there still be ROPSSAA league play or even OFSAA? Or will the coaches that decide to continue with their programs be forced to play in only exhibition and tournament games?

    As I indicated in a previous post, I don't think work to rule will happen so my answer is just a hypothetical. I'm honestly not sure about number of coaches but, if there are members not in a work to rule then there would still be ROPSSAA league play involving those schools.
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    Coach Dougall
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    Post by Coach Dougall Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:43 am

    Xavier Rimrocker wrote:
    basketballrumors wrote:If students did transfer to a catholic school, they could at least practice everyday (if they make the team) and play none ofsaa sanction tournaments (which is most). They would miss league play, but would be eligible to play next season.

    Not necessarily. Many leagues now forbid all game play for ineligible players.

    A player could not practise or play, (exhibition, league or tournament), in the DDSB. We went through the rules and regs with legal help last year in the case of Jordan Jensen-Whyte (now at UBC). As much as we would have loved to see him play for us, there was no chance.

    I should say that despite this fact Jordan helped out at almost every single practise, even when injured, attended most of our games and tournaments and contributed to every team meeting/ video session. Great role model for our players from a fine young man :-)

    Here's hoping the bill doesn't pass and this is all moot.
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    bigred
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    Post by bigred Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:03 pm

    http://www.newstalk1010.com/News/localnews/blogentry.aspx?BlogEntryID=10438071

    Teachers have their rights to do what they want, but by not doing any Extracurriculars the kids are the ones being hurt.The teachers actions are stupid find another way to send a message to McGuinty.

    The only thing Teachers are doing are getting kids and their parents to go against them.

    My view is kids should lock the teachers out the school.Send a message to the teachers that they are not be be used in any Negotiation.
    Xavier Rimrocker
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    Post by Xavier Rimrocker Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:34 pm

    Your final paragraph is ridiculous and simply displays the sense of entitlement that has become prevalent; the idea that teachers have an obligation to provide extra curricular activities. They don't.

    They are provided on a volunteer basis at the expense of time away from their families or other obligations. They do it willingly and gladly but using that it to throw the millions of hours teachers have donated over the years back in their faces is disgraceful.

    If it is essential to the education of young people, something that I would agree with in many situations, then maybe it needs to be treated that way by the Ministry through the collective bargaining agreements. Instead it's used by the government and those who like to bash teachers as a convenient form of moral blackmail.

    Sorry but if the government and the taxpayers aren't willing to put their money where their mouths are then obviously they don't think it's an essential service and they lose the right to display the moral outrage that so many of them are suddenly filled with.
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    bigred
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    Post by bigred Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:09 pm

    Xavier Rimrocker wrote:Your final paragraph is ridiculous and simply displays the sense of entitlement that has become prevalent; the idea that teachers have an obligation to provide extra curricular activities. They don't.

    They are provided on a volunteer basis at the expense of time away from their families or other obligations. They do it willingly and gladly but using that it to throw the millions of hours teachers have donated over the years back in their faces is disgraceful.

    If it is essential to the education of young people, something that I would agree with in many situations, then maybe it needs to be treated that way by the Ministry through the collective bargaining agreements. Instead it's used by the government and those who like to bash teachers as a convenient form of moral blackmail.

    Sorry but if the government and the taxpayers aren't willing to put their money where their mouths are then obviously they don't think it's an essential service and they lose the right to display the moral outrage that so many of them are suddenly filled with.

    You being a teacher have to come and justfied the actions.
    I know extra curricular activities are are being run by teachers who take their time and money to help , to that i say thank you very much but do not take it away because teachers are not getting what they want.
    Stop being a teacher for a moment and put yourself in the students or parents position,i am sure when different work force goes on strike you and your family sit and talked about it , i am sure you guys come up with some negative thoughts .

    Many work force have not seen a pay increase,have health benefits or even have a pension but they have to keep working through the b/s.
    In every work force there are good and bad workers , teachers are no different how many teachers in your school make the extra effort to help kids.

    Your fight is with McGuinty find another way to fight back,do not take away your good hearted kindness that you give the kids which many parents and kids appreciated because of money.

    Do not get me wrong here Teachers have their rights and i have seen some amazing teachers that put students ahead of their own families.

    Xavier Rimrocker i do respect your views step off the unionrep position and step into a low income parent home.
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    Mu2
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    Post by Mu2 Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:19 pm

    maybe the government should start paying the teachers that coach, extra. You would then get more teachers doing extra and since it is paid position teachers wouldn't walk away from doing stuff for free.

    What do you guys think?
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    bigred
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    Post by bigred Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:04 pm

    Mu2 wrote:maybe the government should start paying the teachers that coach, extra. You would then get more teachers doing extra and since it is paid position teachers wouldn't walk away from doing stuff for free.

    What do you guys think?
    There are 2 types of working class the ones who do a job for the love of it and work for their paychecks and there are the ones who do the job for a pay check.
    Here is my views on your point.pay the ones that do the extra and cut the salaries on the one's that dont give a crap lets see how that will work out.

    This is the answer to your question.
    acie earl 55
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    Post by acie earl 55 Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:21 pm

    Bigred - you might want to understand the issue before you climb onto your soapbox. The issue is not about money with the teachers and the removal of VOLUNTARY Services be it as a group or individual is a bigger issue than just sports.

    Remember, teachers/coaches actually have their CURRICULAR job to protect for them and their families - that's the same priority we'd expect anyone to place first over extras. In your life, your family and your WORK come before your PLAYTIME.

    Maybe you should read - see both sides of the issue that teachers and government are really struggling with right now. Education is a business that's working through the "BS". Not sure if you've been paying attention to any other contract disputes, but I didn't hear of any bus drivers refusing to coach after school soccer or any cops choosing not to run the spelling bee because they didn't get the raise they wanted.

    Got news for you - just like you might see in your school - there are people out there who care about their jobs and there are as many who just look forward to doing enough and checking out as fast as possible at the end of the day. Coaches come out because they want to. Some "teach" so they can coach. Some do it because no one else will. Most won't rush to come back if students and parents try to shame them into working for free.

    Put yourself in those shoes - I'm sure you'd act the same way if you were being "disrespected".
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    bigred
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    Post by bigred Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:37 pm

    Acie earl 55 remember all what you post so the next time anyone goes on strike and they are legislated back-to-work.
    Air canada
    CP rail
    Canada post
    Where were their rights.

    I am looking at it from both sides and i will say it again there are some really great teachers /coaches out there.At this point i am looking at it from the kids and parents point.

    Two different threads going on on one side stay in high school forget prep but for some they may not have a season.On the other side we upset about prep.The way it look prep maybe the only one having a season. .
    acie earl 55
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    Post by acie earl 55 Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:11 pm

    Why are you arguing out of both sides of your mouth? You're shaming coaches/teachers for taking a stand in one post and defending the rights of the worker hours later.

    Weak.

    Trying to connect issues of teachers and a public system that pays a large sum for players to have heavily subsidized training (call it high school sport) to a largely for-profit venture selling itself as the best alternative/investment for post-secondary scholarship opportunities? You'll need more than a soft sentence to fly that one.
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    Post by CoachG Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:52 pm

    bigred wrote:Acie earl 55 remember all what you post so the next time anyone goes on strike and they are legislated back-to-work.
    Air canada
    CP rail
    Canada post
    Where were their rights.
    ...
    Two big differences.

    First, those workers were legislated back but their contract disputes were sent to arbitration. The teachers aren't being given even a chance at arbitration but having their contracts legislated.

    Second, teachers aren't on strike. Simply, some are deciding not to volunteer coaching right now. Many others are continuing.

    A parent without the economic ability to get their child into club sports would suffer without school sports but instead of placing the blame on the coaches (teacher or not) who volunteer their time and money year after year to provide a free service to kids, perhaps you should take your energy and lobby the political system to provide more youth activities at an affordable cost.

    p.s. while some club teams have extremely high fees for many kids, other clubs are far more affordable.
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    nomullies
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    Post by nomullies Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:41 pm

    It looks like basketball is headed to a hockey format. Don't AAA hockey players play $3000-$5000 to play a season? Perhaps the NPSAA is the beginning of that. Used to be high school and then some rep for the better bball players. Seems like rep isn't the goto option anymore and high school obviously has concerns.

    But an Armenian beer league team playing against high school aged players? Really?

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