High School Basketball is at an all time low

The reality is that Basketball at the high school level is at an all time low. Most of the teams including Martingrove, Loyola, Oakwood, Eastern, Carr, Vaughan, J Carke, Pickering, MT, Campion, Pineridge, etc, etc, etc are average to slightly above average at best. If you compare them to the good teams of the past ( Bathurst, Runnymede, Eastern, MT etc)

Who beats who, the wins and losses, who was missing who, all of the trash talk serves no purpose. I heard that two players from Martingrove missed playing at MT because they were in the states at some exposure camp. WHY? Why are our marginal players headed to the US?? To show how bad our level of basketball really is.

Coaches/ teachers / parents must stop feeding the players lies and start recognizing what good basketball actually is. The values of hard work and fundamentals seemed to have faded.


When it really comes down to it......everyone stinks

Nash's comments above are worded a little too harshly, but there is some truth to what he is saying. The caliber of basketball in Ontario is dramatically lower than in previous years, but we all know why that is. Our best talent are now choosing to play in the US Prep system and that is hurting the level of play up here.

However, what should we do? Does Nash want us to pack it in and not play at all? Or should we just do the best we can with what we have?

I'd like to thank all of those players and coaches that are working hard right here in Ontario to keep our game alive. Keep your heads up men, the game maybe down, but you certainly are not out!

Dam! Tell us how you really feel!...LOL....Everyone stinks....that is a broad sweeping generalization. I think that you are being rather harsh and judgemental. "It is what it is"....coaches are trying their best to prepare their players....schools can't pine over the players who left to prep... players move on to take advantage of perceived better opportunities.. schools move on and play with what they presently have...basketball is in a downward turn presently...however this year is also exciting because anything can happen any weekend. There is no clear cut number one team! Regional Playoffs start soon and then OFSAA and anything can happen....that's not necessarily a bad thing.

The past is the past. Runnymede and Bathurst were great in the era where high school players were staying at least 5 years and sometimes six years. They were much older than the present high school players. Our top players were here...staying in Ontario for 5 and 6 years. High school teams were not compromised of 10th graders and 11th graders playing senior basketball. You are comparing apple and oranges. It was better basketball because everyone was a lot older. Coach Melnik could probably give the best analysis on this. I'm sure there is a huge difference between the great Runnymede teams he coached in the late 80's and 90's and the Henry Carr teams that he coaches now.

I am not suggesting for 1 second that people/teachers/coaches are not working hard, and I don't care about the kids who have gone on to prep school in the US etc. I am concerned for the players we have here in our city right now. Good players can make for low quality basketball and bad players could have the ability to play some great basketball.

What I am merely trying to say ( and NO I am not suggesting we pack up and stop playing) is that everyone needs to keep getting better. Not for scholarships, bragging rights, who is number 1, etc, but for the kids development on and off the court. I agree with rerun in that it is an exciting season and yes anything can happen, but I am looking at it from a pure basketball standpoint. Some of these kids need reality checks when it comes to how good they actually are. We seem to be playing for wins rather than improvement, and as for your comment (rerun) about the earlier years having older kids (OAC etc) yes this is true but isn't it also true that these kids were competing with kids who were older as well. Doesn't that balance the playing field. I am talking about the quality of the game and no it isn't comparing Apples to Oranges...after all fruit is fruit

So you think that many players have an over inflated sense of how good they are. You believe that todays players are not skilled or fundamentally sound...is this what you are saying? If you are, it sounds like what Leo Rautins was saying a couple of weeks ago. Some of what you are saying may be true, however, individual players need to take some responsibility. If you want to improve, you put in the time and the work.

I also think the age difference between now and a decade ago makes a ton of differnce. Most of the players are 17 these days on senior teams. Back then it was closer to 19. At that age level, two years makes a huge difference in terms of development.

Also, no one ever heard of this Prep School business. If all those Prep players were back in Canada, I am sure you would change your mind. Just look at how good our AAU Grassroots and Takeover teams (mostly GTA prep players) perform at American high school tournaments.

Rerun.....I am not sure if the kids are the problem (over inflated sense of ego), what I am saying is that the game needs to improve and kids should work on the right things. You have to practice the right way, not just practice.

jt

I am not suggesting we don't have good players out there, but a question. What are the players who have gone to prep / ncaa doing now??? Any success stories??

Steve Nash,

Have you heard of the names Tristan Thompson and Cory Joseph. They are both seniors at the number one ranked American high school, Findlay Prep (Las Vegas). Tristan is ranked by ESPN as number 3 high school player in America and Cory is ranked in top 10 players. Tristan committed to Uni of Texas Longhorns and Cory still deciding. Both players are from GTA (Tristan-Brampton D'Youville, Cory-Pickering HS)

So 2 out of ???? thousands

Steve.Nash1: How do you explain then the increasingly high numbers of players from Canada - Toronto and elsewhere across the country, who are making NCAA teams, and getting quality minutes? Surely that is a marker of good players? I think you need to explain how the average quality of high school bball play is not as good as the recnt past but quality players are standing out & playing at US schools. How can this be? thanks

Bernie

It's an interesting post, with incomplete results at this point. On another thread, there was discussion on how the Toronto trained NCAA players were getting more minutes and better production than the recent Prep kids. However, we're still probably three years away to see the true impact as our players who are a couple of years away start to sign.

I think this conversation will have a bit more substance once Corey, Tristan, Junior Cadougan, Big Mo and the rest are playing next year.

It's interesting how this and the thread discussing where certain players go to school (ie in their proper area or not) tie in together. Leave out prep school guys for a second: if Peel players stayed in Peel, Halton in Halton, Toronto in Toronto etc and went to the school for the boundaries they lived in (or somewhat close to it), the talent would be much more evenly spread out, and the overall quality of basketball would increase as it would be more competitive within each respective league. The current model of stacking schools with out of boundary or even region players is flawed as it creates super teams who run over teams and really that is of no benefit to either the winners or losers of such blowout games. Not to mention it creates situations where there are quality 9th, 10th, 11th men on the benches of these super schools who would otherwise be starting if they attended their proper school.

It's a flawed model, but it won't change anytime soon so long as kids are fooled into believing that they can't get a decent ball program - and more importantly education - at their own area's school. Sure, the coaches at these stacked schools are decent, some even great, but let's be honest: they're being handed the elite of the elite who have already spent 3, 4, 5+ years in the rep system and have trained and competed at a high level! Unlike some schools who maybe have 2 or 3 rep players and the rest have to be truly developed from scratch/general athleticism. Alot of the success of these super schools is because the players are just damn good to begin with. And then it just becomes a self-perpetuating myth of sorts: School SoandSo has the best ball program...well of course it does now, everyone flocked to it and gave it a good reputation!

The point is, if everyone went to their proper school (or close to it) there would be an increase in overall talent, and increase of players who didn't come from the rep background getting talented as a result of having some of these rep players on their squads, practicing with them and learning with them, and school ball would be better overall. As it is right now many league and even many pool-play tournament games are complete blowouts and as mentioned this benefits noone.

Cory Joseph and Tristan Thompson would still be going D1 if they stayed in the GTA. They didn't need to go south.

It's too bad we have to wait a couple of years to see real results (good or bad) of the players going south.

I would also love to see how there academics translate at the university level.

A serious issue is why does Canada have a such a high rate of youth participation but not many professional players? It's increasing but it's not relative to the participation rate (19% of active youth play the sport). Incomplete results were mentionned; it will be interesting to see how the National Team stacks up when today's high schoolers and college players are the core contributors in 7-8 years.

Students need to know that going down south isn't the only option. That has hurt some of the talent in the GTA, along with the shorter length of high school and general declining enrollment in the TDSB. There are plenty of good coaches; the GTA top 16 doesn't have a monopoly on skilled coaches. Although if I were a player on a good rep team and all my club team mates were going to one school and my neighbourhood school was not good, it would be tough to convince me to stay in the neighbourhood. I don't know what the magic argument is.

A lot of Canadian players are coming back to finish their college careers in Canada. That's a good sign and improving the quality of competition. At Ryerson and U of T this week, there were good crowds for the Carleton games. If the GTA schools get more attendance and enthusiasm for their games against all opponents, it will help promote the CIS as a viable alternative for Canadian players.

I've enjoyed the games that I've seen this year. You can't go to a tournament certain of the result.

Let us not forget that some players maybe be doing the right thing by going down south for education, many players are getting athletic scholarships to IVY league schools and that imo is an opportunity of a life time.

There is no such thing as athletic scholarships for Ivy schools. It is a mix of high academics and financial need. Having attended the right prep school will definitely help in admission to Ivy colleges but the money is nowhere near the free ride people on this board think it is. The standards for education are very different in the U.S. between all institutions. Unless there is no chance of attending school in Canada on scholarship, athletic (anywhere but Ontario) or academic, then the U.S. MAY offer options. Finding the right fit between academic requirements and athletic opportunities isn't easy.

Interesting topic for sure...

I can say having gone out to the St. Mike's Tournament, and going to a few games and Tourneys to check out some of the top GTA programs and players, I have to agree that the level of talent and the level of the top teams is definitely down...

I think the question up for debate is WHY not IF.

In my opinion, there is no doubt in my mind that the drop in overall talent level is directly linked not to players playing in cross border areas....it's due to a high number of the GTA's top players having gone to U.S. Prep schools.

The analogy I couldn't stop thinking about as I watched the St. Mike's Tournament is, picture an Apple tree with 100 apples (apples being players...), the GTA Basketball apple tree looks like 90 of the 100 apples have been picked.

I think the mistake people make though is to blame U.S. Prep school Coaches or AAU Coaches etc for the players leaving, when I think you have to look at the reality that these young men and their families have minds of their own.

The truth is that NCAA Coaches are happy to take a trip up here if there are players to check out...and if there are no players they have interest in, they won't come....simple as that.

Where does basketball in Canada go from here, only time will tell...but is the level of players and teams down right now, I think the answer is clearly yes unfortunately.

I think the best thing that has occured because so many kids have gone to prep is parity.

Furthermore maybe we should try and stop talking about all these kids who have left and concentrate on the kids that are here and show up in OUR gyms. What can we do to make basketball more prestigious in Canada so kids don't leave? without changing our Canadian values. Everyone knows the differences between our system and the US system, there are benefits AND negatives to going down south. It's a personal choice, not the best choice for everyone.

To take coach Philippe's analogy. If 90 apples are picked off the tree, then 90 more will grow and develop in their place. The tree still needs nurishment for the new apples to develop, and that's what Canadian coaches are doing. They are currently developing a new batch of players.

If 100 kids have left for prep, that means that there are 100 other kids currently playing that wouldn't otherwise be playing. That's got to be good.

I could not agree with panathas more. I would also add that the defection of so many Canadian kids to the US is a recognition of the growth of basketball in Canada and not the contrary. Why were there so few kids leaving before? Perhaps they weren't as good? Or perhaps they weren't as respected? Either way, this is an improvement for Canadian basketball. Furthermore, now (as panathas has demonstrated) that more Canadian kids are getting opportunities to play and be coached in Canada, we are developing even more talent. Yes it takes time but the development is happening. Plain and simple, kids are going south because there is more opportunity south. If I were an American coach, I would be more concerned as to why our elite programs need to leave the country to find kids and not get kids from home. We should be proud of the players that have been given opportunities to develop their game and get an education at these levels. And we should also be encouraged that we will have more Canadia kids playing post secondary ball than ever before as one Canadian kid playing American college ball opens up another spot for a Canadian kid to play CIS or OCAA.

If our ultimate goal is to help more kids get an education (either through scholarships/Can High School/Prep schools, whatever) and the loftier goal of more Cdns in the NBA, then having an extra 100 kids focusing of basketball and education as well as the 100 kids down south, will help us achieve both goals.

It has to be a compliment to the hard work of players/coaches/organizations around the GTA, that so many of our kids are wanted at these prep schools.

Just a thought.

Coaches C & D: d'accord!.

Bernie

The diversity of the city is changing. All of people are moving to the 905 area for many reasons. Also, the rep basketball program is not as strong as the rep hockey program. There are not enough quality basketball camps in the GTA to promote skill developement. Walk into any arena and you will see many hockey/power skating camps offered.
Good for those who are heading into the US to develope their skills. I am sending my son this summer to europe to develope his soccer skills and I see nothing wrong with that. Finally, inorder to develope a child's skill in any sport, parents need very deep pockets. And lets face it, when it comes to sports in the US, money is no object. They value sports more than academics. I know, I was there for a soccer scholarship at FSU. Take care

the point is... the skill/overall talent is down now... even from just a few years ago. a previous poster said that if a player is good enough than recruiters have no problem coming to canada. i couldn't agree more. example: devoe joseph. in my opinion, arguably the best high school player in the GTA (perhaps canada?) over the past 7-10 years. the unique thing about that is, he stayed at pickering his full 5 years. he didnt have to go prep because he was good enough to make a name for himself while playing up here. (also gained a lot of support playing overseas for canada). but that skill was rooted HERE, in ajax/pickering. He was able to do it, and is now a large contributer to the minnesota program. of course there are a few exceptions... tristan thompson and corey joseph - younger brother of devoe. see the connection anyone? all the best to them, they should do well. but on an OVERALL basis... the talent is down. the writing is on the wall folks. its up to parents/coaches to teach these kids the fundamentals at a younger age. is it just me... or does it seem like people are just losing interest in trying to develop these kids? Just my opinion on the subject, agree or disagree i would liek to hear what everyone thinks.

10 years ago, were there many "middlemen" in the GTA that were getting paid to send high school kids to US prep schools? Maybe that's why less kids went south 10 years ago.

And what evidence is there to support the idea that "people are just losing interest in trying to develop these kids"??

Go on the internet and tell me five basketball camps that run all year. Then go and search to see how many soocer and hockey camps are offered all year