ROPSSAA Playoffs: Early preview and problem?

With one week left in the regular season and a lot of games to be played in the next five school days, I thought it was time to start looking ahead. In most divisions, the playoff matches are not officially set but there are really only one or two spots that are truly up in the air. The top two teams in each of the eight divisions will advance to the tier 1 playoffs, with the two finalists advancing to AAAA OFSAA in Sarnia (unless they declare A, AA, and AAA.)

The 16 likely qualifiers are:

- North: d'Youville and Brathwaite have clinched first and second
- NorthWest: Campion has clinched first while Notre Dame has the advantage over Fletcher's for the second spot.
- NorthEast: This is a battle to the finish between Ascension and Aquinas. If Ascension wins or loses by less than 4, they will be first. Otherwise, it will be Aquinas.
- NorthCentral: Leger has clinched first while it will take two upsets for Augustine to get second over Ste. Famille
- Central: Mount Carmel has clinched first and St. Joes is all but certain to finish second.
- South: Goetz has clinched first and Lorne Park is all but certain to finish second.
- SouthWest: With so few games, it's close but it looks like Gonzaga is in the drivers seat for first and Joan of Arc should take second.
SouthEast: Applewood has clinched first and Cawthra has clinched second.

The possible problem mentioned in the thread title has to do with seeding. If it follows the same rules as last year, the eight division winners will be seeded 1-8, based on a poll of all the ROPSSAA head coaches and all the second place teams will be seeded 9-16, based on the same poll. That seems fair enough until you look at NorthEast division: Either Ascension or Aquinas is going to be seeded #9, which would mean a quarter-final match-up against likely top seed, d'Youville. The top three teams are clearly d'Youville and Ascesnion/Aquinas yet one of them will be eliminated earlier than they should.

Here is the worst case scenario: Ascension declares AAA which makes them ineligible for AAAA OFSAA, even if they make the tier 1 final. If they finish ahead of Aquinas, that means Aquinas would face d'Youville in the quarter-finals. With the winner of that match then likely to face Ascension in the final, that means one of the semi-finalists would get the second AAAA spot. I think all objective observers in Peel can agree that Aquinas or d'Youville would be far more deserving of a berth than Campion, Goetz, Carmel, Applewood, or Leger. (This is not an attack on those team; simply an acknowledgement of the gap between 3 and 4 in Peel.) Imagine if Aquinas upset d'Youville in this scenario and one of the best AAAA teams in the province is home while a second, less deserving team that never beat them goes in their place?

Can any of the ROPSSAA coaches confirm if the seeding from last year is being used? Apparently it was settled at the pre-season coaches meeting.

BTW, my picks for seeding, based on my predictions above:

1. d'Youville
2. Ascension/Aquinas
3. Campion
4. Carmel
5. Goetz
6. Applewood
7. Leger
8. Gonzaga
9. Ascension/Aquinas
10. St. Joseph
11. Lorne Park
12. Notre Dame
13. Cawthra
14. Joan of Arc
15. Brathwaite
16. Ste. Famiile

Toughest picks would be 4-6; 10-11; and 14-16.

Even though most systems have a flaw or two inthem, this definately would be a shame. It is hard to imagine one of Aquanis or Ascension being the ninth seed. A quarter final matchup with D'Youville will definately knock one of the teams out of OFSSAA contention. If I am not mistaken, doesn't the Peel winner still have to play another region to go to OFFSSA? Peel and Durham are the two strongest regions in the GTA and it is amazing how difficult it is for a Peel team to qualify for the Provincials.
What is sad is that the GTA gets two automatic bids yet we had our first OFSAA champion in over twenty years when Eastern won AAA last year. Albert Campbell was the last school from Toronto to win a Senior girls basketball title at the provincial level before that. If you look at the top ten list there are 4 Peel teams and judging by what "Peel Fan" states, one definately will not have a chance to go to the provincials. I think that maybe it is time to seriously consider expanding OFSSAA to a 24 or 32 team tournament. It is a three day tournament so it should be achievable.
This way you can take more teams and go with league champions followed by a playoff for the wild card spots. When I looked on the OFSAA website, it showed that there are 18 member associations. There are approximately 4 to 6 associations where there are very few if any AAAA size schools so that would open up more spots. The AA and A is filled with teams from the North as school population is smaller up there.
With that being said, you could still continue to have a pair of teams from Toronto along with two from Toronto Catholic, Durham, York and Peel. . I am just making this example based on the strength of teams this year.
I know that there are some flaws in my system but I am just attempting to open the idea. There are a lot of teams in the five regions who I mentioned as getting a pair of automatic bids. In the smaller classifications such as A and AA, I would propose two automatic bids for up North and smaller population member associations as there are more schools that size to choose from while there are very few A and AA schools in our region. Let's say that the season ended today, here is an outlook of what I mean:
Automatic Bids
Toronto Catholic(TDCAA)-2
Toronto Public (TDSSAA)-2
Durham(LOSSA)-2
York(YRAA)-2
Peel(ROPSSAA)-2
Hamilton-Wentworth(GHAC)-2
Waterloo/Kitchener(CWOSSAA)-2
Lambton Essex and Kent(SWOSSAA)-2 This is the Windsor, Sarnia and Chatham region
Huron, Perth and Middlesex(WOSSAA)-2 This is the London region
Ottawa-2
All others have one automatic bid unless they have two teams in the provincial top fifteen.This would mean that there would be a weekly top fifteen list that would be voted on by a slew of knowledgable and hopefully non-bias individuals.

You would then have wild cards to determine the other couple of spots remaining. For instance the loser of the backdoor game in Toronto would play in a group with third place Durham, Peel and Catholic in a semi final and final to determine 1 or 2 extra wild card spots.

I know this sounds confusuing and would take an awful amount of time to originally set up but this would certainly make it interesting and have the proper 32 teams involved. The host region also gets a pair of teams and the defending champion region gets a pair of teams.

Just a crazy idea that I thought I would throw out.

Peel gets two automatic bids in AAAA basketball but they have to play off against the GHAC champion in AAA, AA, and A.

The regions that get two AAAA berths (ROPSSAA, TDSSA, and CWOSSA) have the largest number of AAAA schools. The berths are not based on previous success. That success is rewarded with a wild card berth for the gold medal-winning region the following season, though at some levels it's only used when the host region already has two berths (the maximum allowed for any region in OFSAA basketball.)

In the case of Toronto, there is also history behind the two berths. The area covered by the TDSSA used to be three separate regions, each with one berth: One for Scarborough; one for Toronto (including East York); and one for the Tri-Cities (North York, Etobicoke, and York). Reducing the over-all region to two berths was part of the restructuring that followed the province's consolidation of school boards in the 90s.

The trend in OFSAA has been to reduce the amount of time away from school and to decrease the costs involved, not to increase them. As nice as it would be to see more teams in OFSAA, the school boards would never approve it. Even adding one more round means one more night in a hotel for all teams and an extra day of school missed because the travel time on the morning of the first day would be pushed to the previous day.

A couple of things to point out or add...

While I agree it would be unfortunate if Aquinas was left at home during the AAAA playoffs, then they should beat Ascension at home by 4 or more in the last regular season game at Aquinas if they are truly deserving of the #2 seed....and please, let's not forget that while I acknowledge Aquinas is a great team, we only lost to them by 4

We play d'Youville next Friday so I guess we will see how we stack up against them.

We are AAA and Ascension is AA..if Ascension is eliminated from Tier 1 playoffs, they could still advance thru AA...same with us--we could qualify thru AAA...

Yes we do have to play off vs. GHAC to get to OFSAA at the A, AA, and AAA levels which is unfair to both leagues. I have already written OFSAA about it and they are considering a change for next year.

Peel Fan's assessment is spot on. One of Aquinas or Ascension will likely be seeded ninth thereby meaning a quarter final matchup with D'youville. That means one of the best teams in the province will not get passed the quarter-finals in their own league due to a seeding system that is obviously flawed.

I have never agreed with seeding systems - especially one like this where a 2nd place team like Aquinas/Ascension, so obviously better than almost every other team in the league, will have to be seeded lower than teams they may have beaten by 40 points. This is especially important in Peel since we have 2 spots at AAAA OFSAA.

The seeding system can also be manipulated. We have seen in boys' basketball the last couple of years where it was advantageous (in terms of potential matchups) to seed one's own team LOWER. This is again the case this year. The 2nd place team (Aquinas or Ascension) should seed themselves as low as possible to avoid being the the #9 seed (the top 2nd place team). In fact, I hope it happens and that coaches do that.

Ascension, at least, has a different route to OFSAA. Which brings up another point that I have always argued: we are forced to declare our OFSAA intentions far too early! For the boys' team we have to declare at the end of November. WHY??? The seedings and playdowns are not until February! Our girls' team coaches had to decide before even seeing the team play once.

There are many other ways to decide the various OFSAA reps this without having to "declare" or having separate playdowns.

Personally I do not think the A, AA, and AAA teams should be allowed to participate in AAAA playoffs..this should be made separate like they do in the US. If Ascension wins ROPSSAA, what happens? Do they go AAAA or AA?

Just to clarify: Teams do not have a back door option for OFSAA in ROPSSAA.

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ROPSSAA Playing Reg #15 (b)

The champions and runners up of the Senior Tier 1 level will advance to OFSAA unless already declaring their intentions to participate in A, AA or AAA playdowns.
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What that means is that if a team declares AAA but loses in the AAA playoff tournament and then they win the tier 1 playoffs, they cannot go to AAAA OFSAA. (I know it doesn't seem logical but the argument is that it's unfair to give the smaller schools multiple shots at OFSAA and the bigger schools only one shot.)

It also works the other way, if a AAA team decides not to declare AAA and then doesn't win tier 1, they cannot later ask to challenge for the AAA berth.

(In ROPSSAA, it is reverse declaration. If you do not declare then you are automatically AAAA.)

Coach Williams: The playoff against GHAC is due to the number of A, AA, and AAA schools. Compared to other regions ROPSSAA has very few so there is a playoff against another region (GHAC) that also has few teams. It's the trade off to receiving two AAAA spots. You see the same philosophy in reverse for Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, and Central Ontario. Because these three regions have so few AAAA schools, they must playoff against each other for a AAAA berth. Most years, the Eastern and Central regions don't bother challenging the Ottawa champs but, if they do, the Ottawa champion must playoff against them first.

If you talk to the ROPSSAA rep, I'm sure they will present the change at next June's AGM but I doubt it will pass since other regions aren't going to be willing to give up a full berth and none of them will want OFSAA expanded further.

Thanks Coach Cormier:

This means it makes even less sense for Ascension and us to participate in the Tier 1 playoffs....we are simply taking away the opportunity for teams like Lorne Park and Leger and Carmel to make OFSAA....

Our volleyball team does not have to play the GHAC AAA champion to go to OFSAA...perhaps we do not have two AAAA berths?

Ascension might have an easier road qualifying for OFSAA through Peel Tier 1 than trying to go through GHAC AA probable champ Milton (a team they probably don't know) with the Alexander sisters...

[quote="coachblue"]Our volleyball team does not have to play the GHAC AAA champion to go to OFSAA...perhaps we do not have two AAAA berths?[/quote]

In volleyball, all regions receive one berth. Additional berths are provided for the host region and regions that medalled the previous year to fill up the spaces in the tournament. Basketball and Field Hockey are the only two OFSAA team sports where some regions receive a second berth automatically at some levels. (Though in the case of field hockey, it's due to the fact that two regions actually host teams from neighbouring regions, too and so they receive that region's berth as well.)

So if all of we think the system is not right why don't we try to change it so that the best represent peel?

Coach Blue, I note on the ROPSSAA website that you are listed as the convener for girls basketball this season. Have you been able to confirm if what I wrote about this year's playoff seeding procedure is correct?

I have heard from a couple of my sources that there is now a small storm of e-mails flying around the league over this issue. Had no one noticed it before my post? Is there any chance it can be changed at this late point in time? Does anyone in the know in Peel (e.g. Coach Blue, Xavier Rimrocker, Eagle1) have any further suggestions?

I am only an Ascension "fan" since I am not on the girls' team coaching staff. I don't know if anyone has formally complained from my school or any other for that matter.

But having been involved for many years as a coach in ROPSSAA and dealing with many other controversies ... the chances of ROPSSAA changing their mind about the seeding system at this point is basically zero. I would be completely shocked to see that happen. That being said, I did not know Coach Blue was the convenor. Not to put him on the spot but it needs to be said ... given the obvious flaw in the seeding system will he support a change in how the teams are seeded?

Coach M

I do support a change in how seeding happens (though there is not really a small storm of emails..more like a little rain shower) ...obviously we should want the best teams in the final..but I do believe we should have done this in the preseason meeting...changing it now would be like changing the rules of the game while you are playing the game...considering this has been the system since I have been in Peel and we have only noticed the "obvious flaw" now it seems as if the flaw is not so obvious...Ascension and Aquinas do belong in the top 3 of the league but what about Lorne Park, St. Joe's and Notre Dame? Do any of those teams belong in the top 8? How do you determine this? Who gets kicked out of the top 8 to accommodate these teams? How do we know if St. Joe's should be ranked higher than my team or Lorne Park higher than Leger? Just as Ascension or Aquinas would be upset if they are not in the top 8, coaches at Gonzaga should be rightly upset if as the first place finisher in their division they are not rewarded with a top 8 seed as is stated in our playing regs (the regs they have playing by all season)...this is the disadvantage of having 8 divisions because some divisions are simply not strong...in my opinion, each scenario would leave a team being treated unfairly...I believe the solution to this is to have tiers so similarly skilled teams play each other and we have a better understanding of where teams should be ranked for playoffs...(of course the main reason we have 8 divisions is to reduce the amount of class time missed by having schools in the same neighbourhoods play each other thereby reducing travel time)

Coach Blue,
I am curious if you know which teams in ROPSAA have declared OFSAA triple AAA and double AA? D'Youville, Aquinas, Ascension, Campion, your team?
Thanks

Of the teams you listed, only Ascension is not a AAAA-sized school.

The AA and AAA schools are not yet posted but Brampton Christian is the only school to declare for A.

Ascension has declared AA.

I know Mentor College and one other school (I can't remember off hand) declared AA as well.

Keep in mind that Ascension declared very early in the school year before even knowing who many of the people on the team were. Christine wasn't even sure if she would play. Based on what I read on another post, I heard Milton is likely to be the AA GHAC rep. Does anybody know anything about them?

Perhaps Ste. Famille is the third school? I believe they are also AA size.

far as i know, us, ascension are the major ones..also st joan of arc, st marcellinus, tlk, iona, st martin, ste famille, mentor college

In that list, Ascension, Mentor and Ste. Famille are all AA size while the rest of them are AAA.

I believe the Catholic schools are divided as follows:

AAAA
Augustine
Aquinas
Campion
Cardinal Leger
d'Youville
Goetz
Gonzaga
Holy Name
Loyola
Mount Carmel
Notre Dame
Pocock
Robert Hall
St. Joseph
Xavier

AAA
Iona
Joan of Arc
John Cabot
Marcellinus (might be AAAA by this year with growth in region)
St. Martin

AA
Ascension
St. Paul

A
None

Update on playoff situation:

NORTH 1: d'Youville
NORTH 2: Mayfield
NORTH WEST 1: Campion
NORTH EAST 2: Notre Dame or Fletcher's (ND has current tie-breaking advantage)
NORTH EAST 1: Ascension or Aquinas (ASC has current tie-breaking advantage)
NORTH EAST 2: Ascension or Aquinas
NORTH CENTRAL 1: Leger
NORTH CENTRAL 2: Augustine, Marcellinus, or Famille (Famille has tie-breaking advantage)
CENTRAL 1: Carmel
CENTRAL 2: Joe's or Xavier (Joe's has advantage)
SOUTH 1: Goetz
SOUTH 2: Lorne Park
SOUTH WEST 1: Gonzaga
SOUTH WEST 2: Joan of Arc
SOUTH EAST 1: Applewood
SOUTH EAST 2: Cawthra

These are the remaining games that will settle the final playoff spots:

__Oct 28__
Fletchers @ Notre Dame

__Oct 29__
Ascension @ Aquinas
Turner @ Marcellinus
Famille @ Jeunes
Joe's @ Streetsville

We have been complaining about the OFSAA format for years - in our region there have typically been four or 5 very strong teams ND Burlington (GHAC) St. Mary's (GHAC) Westdale (SOSSA) STM (GHAC) and Notre Dame Welland (SOSSA). Only 2 of these teams get to go. In the past - we have hosted to allow for the sole reason of another berth. And it has paid off as a Hamilton team has medalled in the past (at least 11 OFSAA's) The last time they did do a 32 team was when London hosted in 1997 and it was a lot of work and many people complained about the boring regional games. BUt I agree their needs to be some sort of wild card system to protect teams that are in particularly competitive leagues.

i say finals is dy vs ascension with dy winning

Another update after Fletcher's defeated Notre Dame and Carmel defeated Xavier. Only one team for tier 1 is undecided and only first place in the Northeast is still not settled.

NORTH 1: d'Youville
NORTH 2: Mayfield
NORTH WEST 1: Campion
NORTH EAST 2: Fletcher's
NORTH EAST 1: Ascension or Aquinas (ASC has current tie-breaking advantage)
NORTH EAST 2: Ascension or Aquinas
NORTH CENTRAL 1: Leger
NORTH CENTRAL 2: Augustine, Marcellinus, or Famille (Famille has tie-breaking advantage)
CENTRAL 1: Carmel
CENTRAL 2: Joe's
SOUTH 1: Goetz
SOUTH 2: Lorne Park
SOUTH WEST 1: Gonzaga
SOUTH WEST 2: Joan of Arc
SOUTH EAST 1: Applewood
SOUTH EAST 2: Cawthra

These are the remaining games that will settle the final playoff spots:

__Oct 29__
Ascension @ Aquinas
Turner @ Marcellinus
Famille @ Jeunes

Top 4 seeds in order will likely be:
1. d'Youville
2. Winner of Ascension-Aquinas
3. Campion
4. Goetz

My vote for the order of the next four would be:

5. Carmel
6. Applewood
7. Leger
8. Gonzaga

How do the seedings work?

Does the winner in each division get seeded 1-8, and the runner-ups get seeded 9-16?

Does a commitee seed the teams, or is it automatically predetermined at the beginning of the season. (eg. North 1 vs. South 2)?