are Pickering's seniors DQ'd from ofssa

in league play

Coach Dougall,

Thanks for taking the time to put together your nice anaology.
But I think you are comparing "apples to oranges" so to speak.

In this case, the player and coaching staff truly believed the player was eligible.
But an administrative / clerical error casued the player to be ineligible.
IMHO the player and school had no intent of breaking the rules.

The games should be won and lost on the floor.
I understand we need structure to provide an even framework for the teams to compete.
But, I just don't think the punishment fits the circumstances surrounding this situaion.

I agree it's not the best analogy but I think it works in terms of progressive discipline that we use all the time in school. One added strength of this analogy is the fact that ppl keep pointing out it was a simple error in paper work so I used the idea of "forgetting" to acknowledge the source of your information.

So 1) its not a first offense and the penalties must increase in severity 2) neglecting a citation (clerical error) will lead to academic sanction whether you meant to or not = forgetting to enter a name because you thought it was already there leads to an ineligible player leads to athletic sanction. If you're already on probation in university you most certainly will be expelled = PHS is on probation therefore a more serious sanction than would at first seem warranted must be applied. Add to that idea that you've just submitted your thesis, been caught plagiarizing, and then tried to back track after submitting it in order to fix your mistake and were caught again, makes this a reasonably strong facsimile to the situation at hand.

You might also argue that this player (or the player on the jr. team) was not an integral player in their scheme. But continuing the analogy, it matters not if the information u plagiarized was the keystone to the structure of your argument or if it made your thesis worse...you still plagiarized. Those other students who are submitting their best work and doing their best not to plagiarize are in effect not competing on a level playing field if this is allowed to continue because the penalty for repeated errors was not severe enough.

Coach Dougall,

In the end I dont agree with the progessive discipline model.
I do understand that the penalities must serve as a deterent.
But, I would rather see penalties that consider the facts and circumstances surrounding the situation, which then can "fit the crime", so to speak.

It does beg the question as to whether or not the punishment would be the same if this was the first time that Pickering was found to have used an ineligible player? Past "mistakes" are always taken into consideration in discipline hearings (progressive or otherwise) and the fact is that this is not the first time Pickering has used an ineligible player thus something had to be done did it not?

I agree with the analogy, but then again the thing with High School or even college sports is that these are a new group of guys. For example, I know some schools are banned from certain tournaments due to how players on the team acted years ago. Should current teams be banned from tournaments because of past players who really have nothing to do with them? I think not. In this specific situation though because the blame rests on the coaches (Yes I said its the coaches fault) that is why they have to come down harsh on the team. Its like when coaches make the whole team run/do pushups for one player's mistake. The first time it wouldn't be that bad, the more mistakes made the worse it would get. This is the situation with Pickering right now, they have some serious laps to run. If you go to Pickering as a player or even support the team next year, don't leave everything up to the coach. Realize from this moment you are being watched, step up to the responsibility and make sure that every detail is taken care of. Make sure the roster is in on time, make sure all the names on it are correct, if you see your friend who is ineligible trying to play take him off the court, with force if necessary. The decision for this year has been made, try to learn from it.

luv2ball wrote:Coach Dougall,

In the end I dont agree with the progessive discipline model.
I do understand that the penalities must serve as a deterent.
But, I would rather see penalties that consider the facts and circumstances surrounding the situation, which then can "fit the crime", so to speak.

I think the point from nevaquitnevalose about different members of the team should not being penalized for past team's problems is a good one...but...it wasn't the fault of the players as you have correctly pointed out. It would be a great point if a previous team had been sanctioned for violating curfew and then a whole different group did the same thing but received an increased penalty.

Last analogy I promise! I hope this addresses what I think is faulty logic when disagreeing with the idea of progressive discipline.

If you were driving down Church Street doing 70 in a 40 and a cop sitting in the church parking lot right next to PHS nailed you, you might get a reduced fine and no points for the first offense. You could NOT argue you didn't realize the speed limit was 40. Ignorance is not a defence.

Second time, third, fourth time, same cop, same spot, same speed, your fine would increase to the max. and your points would accumulate until your license was suspended. If you argued that you didn't realize you were doing 30 over, or that you could no longer drive to your job, or that the team you coached would suffer because you could not make games and practises, the judge would not be moved. (In fact, most would say your actions (not necessarily your thoughts) clearly indicated a disregard for both the law and the students attending PHS.) Further to this if the judge found you had changed the ticket to read 40 in a 40 you would most likely be held in contempt.

In passing, I must say that the tone here recently has been much more reasoned and polite. You cannot say that in regards to the comments on Grossman's blog where he is calling teachers buffoons and ppl are generally using personal attacks and straw man arguments. Perhaps this is what happens when ppl insist on commenting anonymously or under a pseudonym.

Let's hope that in the end PHS does not suffer a suspension of all athletics for the year (which is possible) but that responsibilities are owned up to and penalties fairly meted out.

First, Grossman is way out of line on his blog. No actual journalism going on and degrading teachers and volunteers left, right and centre? This is just axe-grinding. A joke and not worth debating. His coverage of high school sports was pretty bad with the Star anyways.

Second, IspeakTheTruth, sorry for calling it cheating. You're right. It's not cheating. But they do bend the rules. Everyone in Durham knows Pk. For twenty plus years their grade nine latin class would regularly be home to the 4x100 midget track team, the jr football team's half back and starting defensive line and 2 or 3 starters on the junior boys basketball team. When a 6'1 14 year old comes in to register at most schools the guidance department checks to ensure the kid is at the right school. At Pickering the guidance department makes sure Pk becomes the right school.
If you are going to run your athletics that way (and hey, maybe it is in the best interest of the elite athletes) then fine but you better get that paperwork right. Cause the whole thing is built on working those loopholes.
So don't give me this crap about being ignorant. People know that not all of the senior team live within the proper borders of Pk. (Side note: is it the chicken or the egg here? Everyone says that Pk's coaches run lots of practices and the kids get exposure but look at what Hutchcroft did at Anderson with just a couple of solid players. If all these kids actually just went to their proper school they might be surprised. Pretty much every coach in Durham is ready and willing to run ball all year and lots of it. These guys are hungry. I would argue that there are other schools out there that actually provide more ball than Pk)

Anyways. Go get your exposure and all the rest. But you MUST obey the rules or you will receive a slap.

Third, luv2ball, you mentioned a deterrent. I was thinking about this from two ways. One: Gordensky has already made some mistakes. The team was reinstated in the past and Gordensky took the fall. This is because we don't want to see hardwork by players being wasted because of shoddy management. But where exactly is the deterrent for the coach. These kids were told, come to Pickering. You will win. If they get reinstated then the coaches have delivered on the promise. It sucks they can't coach for a bit but the kids win. How does this deter Gordensky? We see it doesnt because these transgressions happened already and he DID do it again. Maybe by punishing the kids it will serve as a stomach punch to the coaching staff at Pickering and they will get themselves in order and maybe reconsider grabbing every athlete within a 50 mile radius. In the long run it might help more kids than it hurts.
Two: I bet the coaches of Durham are hoping this acts as a deterrent to the region's kids and their parents. "You can sit on a transit bus for 50 min to get to Pk where you may or may not be stripped of whatever medal you end up with. And be taught that winning is everything. Or you can go to your local school with your friends and build a winning team there." If more kids did that, the increase in parity would make for a more exciting LOSSA experience. And with the money and prestige that is out there in sports the good kids will be looked at. If you have game, the scouts find you. Justin and Dyshawn sure did fine as Raiders in getting looks from the U.S.

I would like to add food for thought

So we talked about blame, Coach G, Admin staff, Grossman's report etc, but lets try and take a look at it from another political point of view.

There was a player that was not put on the roster because of a clear admin MISTAKE. (human error)

So we have a Lossa committee that makes sure that every school is up holding the rules etc. How many incidents, possibly in different sports, that this has happen, (human error) and it was dealt with and nobody was effected by it? ( i could name a few) But we are talking about probably the most hated school in Durham b/c of the success of the school.

Why did this happen on the day of Lossa finals before something was said?

In perspective:

Who is the Individual that makes sure all eligibility is clear? and Who is the Vice Principal at J Clarke? Interesting thoughts...hmmmm Now i am not here accusing any individuals but it does seem very interesting that there is a very close connection, can we say planned? or by coincidence this human error that happen could have been simply over looked? but that night J Clarke was out played and out matched by Pickering. I dont care about your ranking or how well you did all year round, that day the better team Won!

J Clarke - i couldn't go into next week feeling like you deserve a spot. It was not earned nor did you fairly defend your number 2 ranking.

I'm calling out all you haters.
Did LOSSA mess this up? Yes.
The optics are brutal.
Someone needed to catch this ahead of time.
All the games this guy had played in would still be losses for Pickering but they would (probably?) have made the playoffs anyways.
So if it was before playoffs started you might end up with Pickering vs Pine Ridge in the quarters or something. Unfortunately it happened at the championship AND Richardson took a beat down.
But...
BUT!!!
How are all of you hating on J Clarke?
What did they do?
Where's the Ajax solidarity?
The same people saying this punishes the kids seem to want to punish more kids -- in this case the team out of Richardson.
What is this hypocritical crap?
If J Clarke wins it all I am assuming that you haters will turn down the extra OFSAA entry LOSSA gets because it will have been ill-gotten...
Let's go JAX! Best of luck Richardson!

B IQ...that wasn't food for thought it was refried beans.

PK Bball has been officially mistaken 5 times in 6 years with 7 players. I disagree that they are the most hated programme in Durham bec. of their success. Look at St. Michael's...incredibly successful for decades in virtually every sport and, unless I am mistaken, held in the highest esteem...and so they should be. Their motto is “Doce Me Bonitatem Et Disciplinam Et Scientiam" not "Citius, Altius, Fortius".

I agree PK won the day and the battle that night but I am afraid they seem to be losing the war.

This is funny stuff really, to bad the kids suffer in the end.
fyi jax23, i heard awhile ago that all is not as squeeky clean at that anderson school as you might think. check out the word "coach" and "legal gaurdian".

good luck eastern boys at ofsaa

A few things.

1) Grossman makes his money by being an opinionated clown. He does it well so all the credit to him. He also was one of the few people willing to promote High School sports. (I was pretty happy when we were able to email scores to him instead of dealing with him on the phone).

2) Don't know about Durham but I've seen these clerical errors get the exact same penalty in Toronto - Ineligible player means all the games that player participated in become defaults. Yes, this was higher stakes and a school that has a history of issues but the rules are the same.

3) It would have been great if the problem was noticed earlier. The kid could have been registered late and there could have been enough games left for Pickering to make up for the DQ games and make the playoffs but since (as far as I am aware) there is no mechanism for constant checks, the sheets will never be looked into unless someone asks.

4) I am sure that Pickering isn't the only place where coaches have been creative with rules but success brings closer scrutiny. That's life.

5) Good luck to JC, they may have lost the game but according to the rules, they are the LOSAA rep.

6) Grossman is Grossman.

Shouldn't eligibility be checked BEFORE the playoffs begin? Seems ridiculous to me that this is done after the championship is decided.

CoachJG,

I agree with all 6 points of your previous post.

Jax23

I don't think people are hating on JC, it could have been any other LOSSA school finishing as runners up and the opinions would have been the same.

Once again Good Luck J. Clarke !! I get this funny feeling that with the irony of this year that somehow JC will end up in the finals.