This just in - US Prep School doesn't mean D1 Scholarships

I appreciate all of the input in this thread and find it fascinating.
Kevin Pangos is a great kid and a great player but his story is different. Kevin didn't go to a prep because he had a unique support system. He has two well educated parents, his mom works at the school he attended. His dad is a basketball coach at York university. To their credit they pulled out all of the stops to make sure Kevin had all that they needed. Kevin is a product of parental care, guidance, and support. They did a great job and Kevin, a great kid, took advantage of every opportunity. As a result of this support and Kevin's hard work he was offered all that Canada had to give. As a result, he's at Gonzaga, down in the States, probably starting next year, and he's our poster boy for basketball Canada.
Thanks for the info on money. It is complicated.
And yes Canada does offer some on the east and west coasts, even in Quebec (I think). Ontario gives bursaries and grants they just can't call it an athletic scholarship. They don't offer enough and isn't given to as many as needed. It almost seems 'under the table' when I hear about how and who gets it.
It's a start.
But, Acie Earl 55, I really do get it. I just grow tired of people downing the prep and NCAA systems without examining the reasons our kids are choosing them. It may be our own shortcomings that push our kids south as much as it is the Americans pulling us.

BTW, Simon Fraser plays in an American Conference, and unless you're a hockey player, you probably wouldn't come north. Even if you are a hockey player it's to play in our Junior system not play in our universities. Like the CFL most Americans who play here would leave if offered an NFL contract. C'Mon how many Americans come here to play ball? Why?

I do agree with Acie, do your homework and make a good choice. But, we should demand more to keep our kids here. That's my point.

Wow gud topic im learnin alot

Youngblood

You are beginning to base your arguments on the Canadian inferiority complex???

It doesn't make any sense. Canada has one of the strongest economies in the world. In fact it may be #1 right now. We have a different value system here in Canada. We value academics more than athletics. We value a more conservative approach to doing business, banking, real estate, etc, etc. This is (although very simplified) one of the reasons why Canada remained economically very very strong after the US led economic failure of 2008. Over there most people are wallowing in debt, but they still drive expensive SUV's, have huge houses that they can't afford, etc. It is the same thing with the NCAA. Yes they do make lots of $$, but to what end? The Universities are making Hundreds of Millions of dollars and are using their athletes (by giving them $100 thousand for 4 years) WHAT A JOKE!! Why doesn't some of that money go to the players and their families?? It is the complete farming of student athletes in the pursuit of big buisiness. Here in Canada we have a DIFFERENT value system. Why do you think NCAA Scholarships are only a 1 year contract? If you break your ankle of knee, you could be out of an education. DO you think Americans are going to take care of a Canadian kid?

I agree with you that the US does put more $$ into sports programming, but I wont agree with you that it is better for kids. The strong media influence in the US (and here mind you) promotes the KOBE's and LEBRON's of the world; the dangle this carrot in front of us for the hopes and dreams that we can become the next "GREAT ONE". How many kids have gone wrong in that quest for the dream? Staying in Canada offers a very very big safety net for our own student athletes. Networking, connections, job opportunities, etc, etc. If you are lucky and blessed with the same work ethic / skill / athleticism, like Pangos, Wiggins, etc, etc. then you can make $$ playing this game, and maybe the states is best for you, however, for most of us that is not the case.

Although some of what you said makes sense to me you still haven't offered any real ways to keep our kids here. You've discussed the American economic situation (which isn't that relevant to a 15 year old). You have substantiated the argument for why they go with the understanding that they spend more money and give more profile. You again made the point of how we as Canadians aren't them (Americans) but, you've given NO solutions. Information isn't a solution it's talk.
What would you do?
How would you, being an educated aware individual capable of surmising many relevant points of interest, start to solve it? Would you talk to a 15 year old kid and his mom who can't afford an education and want their kid to play against the best, about the American economic system?
You'd have been alone in your conversation after about a minute.

Who has solutions?????

Acid Earl 55 this response is for you. I'm not sure if your a bitter Canadian high school coach or disappointed Canadian college or university, I hope not.

Any way, I'm not going to disagree with all your points but you as an educator or some who seems to be educated should know never to make comments on situations you know nothing about unless you have some 'facts' not hear say or what you perceive to be true.


So to help you out I'm going to give you some facts....sim bhullar spent 3 years of high school here in Canada in which he was clearly on his way to a juco because these so called great basketball powers Canada didn't reinforce the whole concept of student athlete. In no way am I excusing sim for his responsibility as a student to take care of his part, however, we as parents trust the high school coaches to help support, encourage and inform us as parents. So when a child is allowed to play and he is failing and/or barely passing that coach especially when it's a kid that is good enough and has dreams of playing in the NCAA that coach should know that yes the kid might be passing with 50 but that's not going to help when it comes to the NCAA clearinghouse.



So the question is not about the USA and the prep schools it's more about our own system that is failing kids because if you Acie Earl 55 look into the schools sims attended here in Canada you'll notice a vicious trend of kids not qualifying for the ncaa and going off to college or some do make it to university here but were good enough to get a a division 1 scholarship but didn't meet the NCAA requirements. Who is to blame you ask? The USA prep schools? Aau teams? The kids themselves? Parents? High school coaches and teachers in Canada?

This is more complex than you just coming on here and blaming USA prep schools or AAU guys? FYI Kevin Thomas also spent 3 years here in Canada before going down and again his grades were horrible. Now going down to
that place ro calls a school wasn't a good decision. He would have been better off going somewhere else but to be honest I still think he would have never qualified......so you can't blame ro for that ONE.

Last point, the NCAA has made it extremely difficult for kids to qualify especially the kids that were in the middle of there high school when the 4 year rule kick in and kids needed to get 16 cores....they really should have godfathered that rule....just my opinion.

I hope this helps bring some clarification.

In regards to a solution we as a community and country need to chill with the negativity and try to continue and help support our kids and hold all people accountable first the kids, second parents, third the high school coaches and teachers and lastly the AAU coaches. Kids must have there transcripts evaluated every year and semester to make sure they are on track for what ever path they are wanting to go down.

Now we are getting somewhere, but, I think we need to hold adults accountable before a 15 year old kid. What in the world do you know at 15? No offense to teenagers out there. I mean that's why we teach kids because we as adults are suppose to know better.
How do we keep our kids here and stop the drain? Can we?

Real Facts;

Sim and Thomas went down after Grade 10. They were academically doing fine here from what I heard? Can you verify?

No sim was at dyouville for a year and half and transferred to Carr for a year and a half....and he was not doing well academically at all! As for Kevin I'm pretty sure he was at Pickering for 3 years averaging a steady 50 but never missed a game. So to answer your question both kids like many were struggling with our Canadian system and they're just 2 examples of many and I mean many of kids that struggle academically here and try to salvage something in the US. I'll only give example for now, Cory Joseph in Pickering hs taking the wrong stream of courses (applied) transfer to Findlay and because Findlay like other prep schools like them understand the clearinghouse, he gets cleared thus, in the NBA now. Had he stayed at Pickering he would be at juco and maybe in the league 3 years from now.

Again I don't say this to bash any schools but I'm tired of people not discussing the real issues. We have way more kids on our side of the border going to juco and or college than the kids that go prep...or is that the US peeps fault to???

By the way, Acie Earl what's up with bashing new Mexico state?? Wow, I thought we should be supporting our kids and be proud of them attending some type of post secondary, no matter if college or university but to come on here and put down a university that at least 6 Canadians attend and we have a Canadian on staff....wow, not cool! Quick question for you is Ryerson any better?? You don't complain when a kid like Arron best decides to go there over any other university in Canada or even an ivy school in the USA. Let kids pick there path along with there families.

I wouldn't stop the kid at all from going down to the States - I'd make sure they know the program that they're getting into. Find out their reputation for sending students who actually academically qualify for classes and playing good basketball.

What's their discipline policy? No grades no play?

What do players say? What do other coaches say?

How many score well on SATs?

How many go JUCO?

How many go D2?

How many get degrees?

And how many don't go anywhere?

How many go pro? (Especially non-NBA)

Who do there coaches network with?

How many develop training and nutrition programs beyond KD and 500 layups?

What's the housing like? Residence? House with 12 guys and one lady they call Miss?

Do they run AAU? How do they do? Where do they go?

What's your experience with the NCAA Clearinghouse? With Canadians? Look at my transcript and tell me what's the deal.

Can't answer these questions - probably not worth going.

Denham Brown played at UConn. He also grew up in the Jungle. Don't think mom had keys to the gym. No Prep Required.

I have decided to edit my post after speaking with a few coaches. realfacts mentioned three specific student-athletes: Sim Bhullar, Kevin Thomas and Cory Joseph, three very talented basketball players.

All three were headed to Junior College presumably because their grades were poor. Of the three, Cory was the only one who qualified. I do not have personal knowledge of their grades or academic potential, so I cannot comment.

The reality is that Cory qualified coming out of Findlay, Kevin is going to a Junior College and Sim is ineligible for his first year at NMSU.

I think it is fair to say that each student-athlete has to be looked at individually. Having said that, not every prep school is the "right" prep school. Not every high school in Canada is the "right" high school. There are some very good schools on both sides of the border.

As parents, teachers and coaches, there is a lot of room for improvement. Laying blame has to stop! Recognize that there is a problem and it is not being addressed. The problem from what my educator friends tell me is rooted in the funding formula. In other words, strong students will do well, but the resources are not in place for the students who need greater support.

I know that the few teacher-coaches I know do their very best to understand the NCAA qualifying system, to monitor their athlete's transcripts every semester, and provide as much support as humanly possible.

Let's take responsibility, look for solutions and stop laying blame.

I'm pretty sure every basketball player, or any student for that fact, who wants to go to university know they have to take academic courses.

It's pretty sad that people are blaming teachers, coaches, etc for students getting poor grades. Students have many resourses to access to get their grades better and do well in their canadian schools. Its just sad that the resource some of these students are taking is to go down south to get easy marks (which in the long run will help a relative few). I believe student athletes should be responsible to keep both their game and academics at a high level. Obviously, teachers and the like should help these students, but not bottle fed.

The 'prep' system is still in learning stages and people are going to have differences of opinion. I just hope that players are getting the right information and are being takening care of properly (actually having classes and school!) (too many bad stories that that any parent wouldn't want).

Quick question: don't a lot of these kids going to prep school pay? Unless there exceptional athletes? Does that cost come into play and the cost of living down there for a year or more come into play?

Real Facts,

Thanks you fort the information but understand this. Corey, Sim and Kevin were all in that cohort of kids who got sideswiped by the quick introduction of the Clearinghouse rules in 2008 (I believe) If they weren't taking Academic courses in Grade 9 they would be in trouble. "A Failed Canadian System" Really?? Our education system is far superior to those in the US. Prep schools did nothing for Sim mind you.

The reason why some of these kids are taking "Applied Courses" is because they are "Applied Level" students. There are some students who are quite capable of succeeding in the academic stream, but, chose the "applied one" because it is easier for them. However, most of them are applied level students in the present Ontario Curriculum. They had absolutley no chance to get through the NCAA Clearinghouse.

There is nothing wrong with the education system. It is the way how we are framing this whole post secondary basketball experience. Time and time again, I hear if a kid goes to community college or Junior college that he has wasted two years. How is that? If kid goes to JUCO and works hard for two years and earns the right to attend a D1 or D2 School, then how is that a waste. If he learns how to organize himself, work hard, become more disciplined and plan long term, how is that a waste of two years. Parents, coaches and others interested in the well being of high school players need to deliver that message. It is okay to go to community college, work hard for two years and attend a CIS SCHOOL or American University.
I've had players do the same thing in Canada and the United States and they are better people for it. Players have to stop trying to get around the Clearinghouse and rightfully earn their way through it....either directly out of high school within the structure of a proper high school curriculum in Canada or a reputeable prep school or go to a good JUCO and earn your way with two years of hard work, planning and discipline. Then, we would not have most of these problems. Stop trying to take the easy way out!

Your right our education system is not failing these kids..... Are you serious? Ok maybe it's time we touch on the real issue and problems. And please I hope no one gets offended but I just think it's time we had a real discussion about students and sports.

The first thing I would like to point is do you notice who who is struggling in our so called great education system.....bingo visible minorities. Are all visible minorities applied students? Or just the ones that play basketball? I don't think so there is definitely some racial issues that come into play when you talk about our great education system. I'm not saying people who are not visible minorities don't struggle as well but not to the extent of people who are visible minorities. I'm tired of seeing the ridiculous number of athletes in particular visible minorities falling through the crack and we as a community continue to focus on prep schools in the states (who have there own problems) and not discuss or hold our schools accountable for our kids here and the lack of success. Just my opinion. Please feel free to comment and I'm not arguing with anyone but I feel this should be discussed in a professional manner.

I feel, no I know, that all of what is being discussed is true. Students must be accountable for their education, but our system is failing a large number of our students who's environment puts them ar risk. Many of their parents don't have a university or college education and rely on the education system for help. A large number of students are having difficulty in our school system.

Speaking realistically our school system isn't that successful in some demographics so touting the successes of our system may not resonate with some communities. Many of the kids who have difficulty in the states have difficulty here 1st. Many times it goes unaddressed. As a matter of fact many of these athletes get kicked off of the team, ill-equipped to handle academics and without the systems set in place for them to catch up. Many of these guys don't make it even to a prep. They become the greatest players the world never sees.

I've been involved with coaching and education for many years over 35 as a student athlete, a coach (elementary, high school, college, rep, and national teams), and involved on every level of education, and now as a parent of athletic boys and girls. I think our system is great, but to say we can't modify it isn't being realistic and plain arrogant. We lose students here, we lose students there, the problem is we lose students. I know we can't save them all, but we can do better.
I was the kid who did well in school, nationally ranked but who chose not to stay because I couldn't afford to stay. It didn't make sense for me to regardless of the level of education. Soon my kids will be in that position, and I'll tell you, if they're (US Schools) are paying. . . .C'Mon??

I appreciate this forum and wish the school boards, the government and basketball Canada would read it. It's obvious that it goes beyond just issues with American prep schools. it starts here in our schools, long before they are in a position to make that decision.

Real Facts,

Is the problem the education system or the parents, guardians and the proper supports. I'm a black male that made it through the equivalent of the academic stream (Advanced) back in the day. However, I have fantastic parents...maybe not on par with Kevin Pangos and his MOM and Dad, but, very involved in everything that I did. In my opinion, it is not the system...it is the lack of support and involvement at home that is the main reason for all these short comings. The school system can't fix everything and everyone. We have a lot of kids that are making poor decisions so where are their parents. Where are the responsible adults in their lives that will help them make informed decisions? Kids are going to prep schools, but, the real question is why. Are you trying to get around the NCAA Clearinghouse by reclassifying and taking easier courses? Are you trying to play against better competition? Are you trying to get more exposure? Those are the questions a parent or responsible, caring adult needs to consider before shipping their son or nephew down south. I don't think it is race as much as Socio-economic status. we have a lot of visible minorities not getting through the Clearinghouse, but, I don't think you can blame the school system for that. Parents need to plan and do their homework. The schools can't do everything and people have free will to make decisions....unfortunately we have kids making a lot of bad ones!

The schools have to be involved. Parents have to be involved. Coaches have to be involved. Everyone plays a role. Parents doing their homework on Prep's might be difficult because, let's be honest, many parents have NO frame of reference about schools, work long and hard hours most of the day and unfortunately, many parents are 'wacked'. In those situations the school and coaches must be more involved. It's a triangle of those three players with the student athletes in the centre of it. When one corner can't pull the weight the other two must for the benefit of the child. When this dynamic functions the athlete thrives. The child's responsibility is to perform on and off the court. This is made easier when the situation above is solid.
Unfortunately for many kids bad choices result from bad environments, nurturing, and miseducation.
Major school decisions are far too serious for 14 & 15 year olds to make alone.

I have been reading this thread and can add some info to consider. Ontario gets the least amount of funding from our govt towards post secondary education so our tuition fees are the highest in Canada. That is one of the reasons our Universities can only give up to 3500 in "athletic bursaries". My son made the decision to play for a university in BC this year because they were able to offer his full tuition and fees for 5 years. He will have to work through the summer to pay for his residence costs though unless Basketball Ontario or Basketball Canada provides some support through their Quest for Gold program. He is a very good student with 80 avg and took all University level courses in 4 years but it would have cost us 5K-8K for him to go to a prep school in the states next year and that is after the prep school financial aid kicked in. I believe our universities need better funding all around and it should be easier for student athletes to get financial support from the sports councils e.g. Basketball Canada etc so they can stay here and succeed without financial burdens ..maybe we need to put pressure on our elected politicians to make these changes.

Rerun, Youngblood and ballhog, you guys rise some really good points. Hopefully some of the influential people in our community will pay attention and help make some changes in sports in Canada.

Also what do you guys think about these prep schools in Canada are they a better option?

I don't think that Canadian Prep's offer any more than their Americsn counterparts right now. As a matter of fact they may offer less. Academically many don't offer much more than the average school and in some cases not even that. They won't guarantee competition that may be better than the OFSAA competition in most tournaments and, they won't get you looked at from schools north or south of the border.

That being said they've just started. Some schools that have been around longer like REDA are quite competitive and are a good choice for those who want to stay here. But, how many Canadian Prep's are like REDA right now. In some years that may change. The ones sprouting up have fine coaches and are connected to decent schools but they have a lot of bugs to work out. American preps schools have head starts decades old and in some cases over a century (St. Benedicts prep in NJ). I do believe they'll catch up soon. We are just too talented, but for now, I'd probably send my kids south to prep if it's a good school and they offer a scholarship. I ain't paying 'squat' if I don't have to.

Realfacts,

It's interesting that you read only half of my posts focussing on the one facet of the argument - then back up my points followed by offering the olive branch of discussing things in a professional manner while pulling out a race card. Very curious indeed.

Clearly we actually share many of the same ideals and philosophies in this situation. Yes - the Canadian High School system is letting down these kids academically. It's not just the US Prep - and I've identified Kevin Thomas' situation as an example to that. I also have a strong dislike for all the school programs who support kids in their sport training but could care less about providing the foundation, support and discipline to ensure that they are keeping their grades and courses in check. I'm not talking lip-service - the real deal.

If you're going to address the issue of the Ontario Academic System failing students of visible minority - you really need to look beyond just sport. Varsity Basketball impacts no more than 30 kids in a school - the impact of kids feeling school doesn't connect to them and the lack of a culture of strong academic desire is a far bigger issue than what we're talking about. I'd actually worry more about the student who will never make any basketball team who still has delusions that at 5'6" and 200 lbs he'll be the next great one. . . Someday. The Education system has failed these kids - but these aren't just your visible minorities (or the one's that just play basketball). Leave the GTA and you'll have this same issue with kids who have NHL aspirations and those who want to just chill in a field and avoid making responsible choices and their skin tone is far more pale.

Realfacts, if you want to know my interest - I'm a Cultural Anthropologist. Basketball culture is fascinating as it's impact on urban youth actually crosses all cultural and socio-economic boundaries. It's also an incredible story to watch a sport explode through a generation of young Canadians. The only problem is that the story doesn't look like it'll roll out with a good ending.

Most of these kids won't realize their "Hoop Dreams", they won't get the nice scholarship to a prestigious or even a degree that can help them train for life after sports - and the hope of a National Team that can medal in five years will be another disappointment - all because the main players who CONTROL the sport (coaches, prep schools, REDA, CB, NCAA, CIS, OBA, AAU, NIKE, SPRITE, ROGERS CABLE, MIAMI HEAT, CARL ENGLISH) have agendas that are based on taking care of their needs and using kids and their single focus to sell them on a dream without maintaining a priority of giving them real support. Carl's not that bad - he's from Newfoundland so it's not his fault.

At the end of the day, I feel horribly for these kids. They'll have a great story of their days playing prep - and maybe a bit of college ball . . . but the money spent and the years lost towards getting their lives together doesn't come back. And to stress my support of you RF, it is the fault of the student, parents and the school's transitioning the player from elementary to high school who didn't do their job.

Realfacts, if you want to impress me with real facts - show me the results of the past fifteen years of who has gone to play college ball down south. Who got degrees? Who's playing pro? Who did both? What happened when basketball playing was over? These are the stories that our aspiring young and talented athletes need to know. Then I'll be impressed by your posts rather than the easy slight of the entire educational system and it's failure of visible minority athletes..